Labradoodle & Goldendoodle Forum
The conversations of this week have been on my mind alot. I am also having some personal issues with my son and his girlfriend are getting the second great dane puppy. The first is one year old now and they are great parents. We don't agree with them getting the second puppy. We didn't agree with them getting either dog. I can't do anything about it. THe first one they compromised with us to buy atleast a puppy that had a health guarantee and the parents were genetically tested. This one has papers on the parents and health checks as well but is a first time breeder and is not registering the litter. They found it on Kijji. They argue that Kijji is not a bad place to get anything. These are back yard breeders. The price reflects that. I don't think that the dogs would qualify for CKC as they have faults as far as I can figure out. I don't know much about pure breds and how they are qualified and what happens when they don't qualify to their standards. I do know that I have used just about every argument known to man and all the information I have learned from DK to change their minds. It is not happening.
There have been allegations that the breeder that I got Neely from is a puppymill. I really don't think that they are but they are not a home breeder they are a kennel. I have been there and also have talked to and still use the same vet. The genetic testing is great as well. I do think that I would have liked to have the information about that breeder prior to purchase. I was not on doodlekisses at that time. I did not get the info from the DK though. I found one complaint on the internet. Far from a deluge of information.
Recently there have been two large rescues from known puppy mills in my area. Our local OSPCA has had quite a few of these dogs to rehabilitate, and some are now ready for and have been adopted.
What bothers me is that even though these people have had their dogs taken away and they are a known puppy mill and it has been in the paper no NAMES have been released. WHY??? I want to know!
If the puppy mill has had legal ramifications and has been investigated by animal welfare people and found guilty why not publish their names? I think it would stop alot of these people starting up new set ups with different kennel names if we knew THEIR names. If the KENNEL name was released then that information would be available to people looking for their new pets so they could avoid them no MATTER the COST.
I understand that we can't have people just giving their opinion in public or defaming the people who may not be puppy mills but have allegations against them. It is very easy for someone to put a complaint out there for reasons that may not have anything to do with the way reality is. A small business can be damaged greatly by one customer who could just have been the customer from H---!
What I would like to see happen is to bring the puppy mill people with great web sites or that ship only out into the public and expose them. I think that if there have been legal and or animal welfare people come in and shut you down it should be information we are not afraid to share. I was just on the CKC website and there is a breeder there that is on notice for something and her name and her kennel name are out there for all to see. It doesn't go into detail, only states the infraction type so It would be up to each individual to look into that themselves before dealing with her. Her website doesn't state she is on notice though. We don't have an organization that alerts us to possible issues. We are it. Word of mouth. As long as the word out of your mouth can be backed up by facts presented as legally correct!
It seemed to me (I didn't check as I am not familiar with that area) that the discussion about the possible puppymill had many documents and legal input that it was indeed a puppymill. It would not have gotten heated at all if the person that was looking for her sibling pups would have said, thank you for the information and continued to ask for sibling info. It would have settled us down to realize she wasn't going to advocate for her breeder. Her responses left us no choice but to worry that she would indeed support a known puppymill. And with newbies here expecting support for purchasing their forever friend I would want them to know and it had to be said.
It seems the information on puppymills that have been convicted is not available? I found out in depth about a Canadian Breeder that had several convictions and kept opening under different names. That was a few years ago. That is the only one that I have come across, not that I am looking that hard. I already have Neely so I haven't been searching as much. If the information is out there on convicted or comfiscated puppy mills. Where can we share it?
Lorraine, You brought up so many great points and I thank you for putting this out here in a discussion format. I should have done that with my blog. As far as your son and his girlfriend, I think that is the hardest part of having adult children, they don't have to listen to you anymore..LOL! It sounds like you gave them the facts, but unfortunately you cannot make them listen. Sometimes, it was easier when they were little, right?
One of the problems with the names, is these people change them and start operating under another name and it is hard to keep track of them. I agree we need better laws and better education. Until then, word-of-mouth and these discussions are getting some of that information out there, but it sure does seem like an uphill battle.
Lorraine, thank you for starting this discussion. You have brought up some great points here, and I am going to respond again when I have a little more time. Right now I am getting ready to take JD to the vet. But for now, here is something that may help you change your DS & his GF's minds. This is a list of all of the genetic diseases that commonly occur in Great Danes, along with detailed explanations of all of them, and the mode of inheritance for those where that is known. The list is much longer than for most other breeds, as the giant breeds are known to have more genetic problems than the average dog. Nobody who looks at this could then buy a Great Dane without some serious reflection on the quality of the breeding dogs:
And sadly, the giant breeds have a short life span in the best of circumstances.
Karen Thanks so much, this is to no avail. You were a great help with my info last time. I will say that I have continued to harp on food and have finally made headway on that issue and they have decided over time to feed a better quality dog food. They did look into the genetic illnesses and also the tummy flip issue and refused to pay extra to have the tummy stapled at the time of her being fixed. I will love my new little great dane grandpuppy but will never condone the manner they got them. I will forward this again, but the baby comes home Wednesday! I have been educating them for a year but when they're stuborn they're stuborn!
Hopefully they are at least not getting a merle?
You have done your best, Lorraine, and that's all you can do. Every little bit does help, as you've seen with the food. I hope the new grandpuppy is healthy, maybe you can post a photo for us?
AHHH YEP HE IS a merle! Do I want to know??? He looks adorable and looks like he will be huge! I did send them the link and also said that if they didn't want to use it for picking the dog they could read it to help them keep and eye on anything that may show up that needs treatment. I also told them that everyone has to learn and maybe they could forward the link on to their very well meaning breeders. I have applied at a vet's office and hope I get that job and maybe they will listen more if they think I am more educated instead of internet read?? Wish me luck?
Do you want to know?
yep give it to me straight! I did look on the CKC website and the colours are to be disqualified but it did not give reasons why so I assumed that it was just for looks because they want all their purebreds to look the same. I did hear that white danes are more genetically linked to deafness I believe. Their first one is a boston blue with white markings. Knowledge only makes you stronger and sometimes makes you cry. I can do both.
Ps while educating me we are also educating anyone else reading this and that can't hurt either right?
There are serious health issues linked to merle coloring in many (not all) breeds. It takes a really experienced breeder who really knows her lines to produce a healthy merle.
In Great Danes, merle coloring in linked to eye and ear problems, including blindness and deafness.
From a Great Dane website:
Even if your Merle is perfect in every way, great conformation, character and all else that a Dane can be. Breeding merles is currently deemed an unethical practice by the Great Dane Club of America's breeder's code of ethics.
Not to mention that breeding merles may produce dead puppies, sick puppies, and Danes that are predisposed to future health problems. This is possible if the "merle" gene is present in both parents, resulting in double "merle" dogs that can be stillborn, deaf, blind and genetically flawed.
You can usually find the name of the puppy mill/ kennel owner on the website if you look carefully. Sometimes you can find it in the "contact" us section. Sometimes you can find it if you look at the puppy purchasing agreement or contract. If not, there will almost always be a phone number which you can then enter into a reverse directory website and possibly get some information. I have also had success typing the number into a Google search; you would be surprised what sometimes comes up linked to that phone number. You can do a search for the kennel name and sometimes the owner's name comes up on business listing websites.
If an article simply says "A puppy mill in Anywhere, Ont has been shut down and the dogs seized", without giving a name, do some detective work. If you know some of the kinds of dogs they sold, do a search for "Cavapoos Anywhere Ont" or whatever, and see what comes up. Sometimes you can find the names that way.
Once there is an article printed in a newspaper, or an on-line news website, or mentioned in a TV video, stating that such-and-so (or the owners of such-and-so kennel) has been convicted, or raided, or shut down, or is being investigated, etc., you can post a link to those things without being guilty of defamation. It is now public information.
It is very true that these people keep coming back under different names, up to their old tricks again. In many instances, the new operation is in the name of a relative or former manager. So it is hard to know.
I think perhaps the names are not released in some cases because there is legal action pending and they don't want to release information until after there has been a decision in the matter.
The information on some puppy mills where there has been legal action, citations, etc. issued is available. I don't know of any central location where all of it can be found, though.
I do think it is up to us to keep trying to inform people in any way we can. Blogs, discussions, geographic groups here on DK, whatever.
I think it is easier to find a responsible breeder than to get rid of puppy mills. If one WANTS a responsible breeder. But not everyone is sold on the benefits of getting a dog from a good breeder, thus puppy mills and the varied levels of bad between BYB and puppy mills exist and will continue to exist. People have to WANT a high standard in order for the bar to be set higher. And one person's puppy mill may be merely a large commercial breeder with clean kennels and happy but bored dogs. For example, is a clean, well run, non-neglectful, non-abusive large kennel (that is similar to a simple doggy daycare for the most part) that breeds a number of females each year and pumps out LOTS of puppies = to a puppy mill that must be stopped? Well most people equate puppy mill with the kennels that keep dogs in cages and don't allow them to run on grass and where the dogs are filthy and skinny and uncared for in the least. So when people visit the 'nice, shining, clean' kennel they are not going to consider that that might not be the best place for a dog because the dogs there AREN'T abused or neglected. So what's so bad about that? (they will ask). Well maybe it's not so bad except for the part where dogs aren't bred to the highest standards, health testing and lineage checking might be incomplete, etc. Not the obvious bad breeding example, but not the ideal. But it is cheaper and most people have NOT been convinced that it is the standard of breeding that is the issue not whether JUST the breeding dogs are abused or not. If there are abuse and neglect laws for animals then those seem like the ones easily addressed, but if not then those need to be put in place. But what about just crappy breeding? I think that is an issue for education so there is very little demand for dogs from bad breeding. But that is hard to convince the average Jane/Joe/ about.
I also think people need to be educated about dogs in general. How can we expect people to be educated about breeders when they are not even educated about breeds? So many people choose a breed strictly by appearance, without any consideration or knowledge of the temperament, behaviors, grooming requirements, or health issues that are specific to that breed. The obvious example of this is Dalmatians, which suffered greatly as a breed thanks to the Disney movies back in the 50s and then again more recently, due to people running out to get one of those "sweet", beautiful black and white dogs who in reality were never on this earth intended to be house pets or family dogs.
(And please, if you had one as a kid who was a great dog, I know there are always exceptions. That's not the point. And you were either lucky, or your parents were skilled with dogs.)
But there are examples closer to home. One argument we often hear here on DK when debates about puppy mills come up is "I had a purebred Golden Retriever (or Lab or GSD, etc) from a good breeder with all the health testing and he died of cancer when he was only 7 (or 8 or 9 etc)."
Well, I didn't see the dog's pedigree, and I don't know how good this breeder really was, but what I do know is that Golden Retrievers are the number one breed for just about all forms of cancers. So did they know that they were choosing the breed most likely to develop cancer when they chose a Golden to begin with? Or were they just choosing a Golden because "my brother has Goldens" or "They're good with kids" or "my husband likes big dogs"?
The Aussiedoodle who is hell on wheels and nips the kids may be that way because he came from poor stock with uneven temperaments, or he may be that way because he's half herding dog who was bred to herd livestock by nipping at them. Did the owner know that, or did they choose an Aussiedoodle because "the colors are so unusual" and "the size is nice, not too big, not too small"? This is where education comes in, too. People need to look at more than size, color, and coat-type. People need to learn about dogs, period.
Here again is where a good breeder comes in. A responsible breeder who cares about more than just making a sale will make sure that a buyer understands the characteristics of the breed she is selling.
Education, education, edcuation, about all things dog.